The weblog of the Bunnells, missionaries serving in Romania on behalf of
Wednesday, August 01, 2007
The appalling arrogance of atheism
Sometimes professing atheists like to accuse followers of Christ of being "arrogant," because of how sure we are of our claims to know God is real and He is a part of our lives. But when you think about it, isn't it the atheist who is holding to an arrogant belief system? After all, it is the atheist, not the Christian, who makes a claim to have all knowledge. For his claims to be proven, the atheist must back them up with evidence that would require absolute omniscience to find.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about that is based on a similar illustration from evangelist Ray Comfort.
Imagine I wanted to say, there is gold in the country of Romania. How much knowledge of Romania must I have to be able to be certain my claim is true, and to prove it to others? Not much, really. All I have to do is point to my wedding ring, which has gold, and I have proven irrefutably that there is gold in Romania.
But imagine someone was claiming there is no gold in all Romania. How much knowledge is that person claiming to have of Romania? Complete knowledge of the country is what they are claiming to have. For their claim to be proven, they have to know everything about what is in every house, yard, field, church, store, and building of every kind. They have to show inventory of what is in every single one of the 22 million Romanian people's teeth. They have to have completely unlimited knowledge of Romania to prove something isn't there. So if someone told you there is no gold at all in Romania, even if you'd never been here before and never seen the proof that there is gold here, you would still be wise to consider foolish that person's claim; because you would instinctively know that they couldn't possibly have any real clue what they were talking about.
That's how you should view atheists, too. Not a one of them has any idea what he is talking about when he denies God's existence, even if he is eloquent or successful, or able to communicate with words in a way that make him sound intelligent. Maybe he hasn't seen God act in his life. But that proves nothing. It doesn't even help his case, much less prove it. His knowledge is far too limited to be considered ample evidence.
For him to claim God isn't there, he would need complete knowledge of everything that has ever happened in your life, too. And mine. And the person next door to you, and the person next door to them. And every person in the entire world. And every person in all of world history. And not just people. He'd have to know every animal and plant and rock. And he can't limit his search for evidence of God's non-existence to this little planet, either. He has to have complete knowledge of everything you can conceive of in the universe, as well as the trillions of things you cannot conceive of. Otherwise, he simply fails to prove his foolish assertion that God is not real.
Atheists are not just lacking proper evidence of their atheistic claims--they are lacking any evidence that they are right. And yet they claim that they can know about these things. That's arrogance.
How much evidence must I have to claim God is real and not be arrogant in saying so? I just have to know what I know, and I don't have to claim knowledge of anyone or anything that I don't have. My own life has seen irrefutable proof that God is real, and no one has ever disproven His existence in my life, nor can anyone. And I'm just one of billions of witnesses to this truth that God is real, with each one of our billions of testimonies remaining undisputed.
At the least, an atheist should be willing to admit he doesn't know if he is right. Even if he will not believe the words of those who do know God is there, he should at least be willing to consider that in the 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999 percent of knowledge of the universe that he hasn't learned yet, there might be ample evidence that God is real, and he just hasn't yet found it.
Dave September 3, 2007 08:05 PM PDT This looks like it will make an interesting film documentary:
http://www.expelledthemovie.com/home.php
Dave August 13, 2007 11:48 AM PDT Two atheists now have said something to the effect of, "Okay, if the universe's presence means someone had to design it, then who made God?" In effect, this circular logic is saying this: "My argument should be accepted as right, because it is wrong." They want to look at temporal things like trees and rocks and elephants and say, there is no evidence that this was created, but I won't believe God exists unless you prove to me He was created. So they say, "I don't believe your argument that things created had a Creator, but if there is a God then He had to be created." What silliness. What lunacy. What lack of intellect masquerading as wisdom. God did not come into being. He is eternal. He is the One who created everything else. He is not subject to the laws of the universe that He made. But those laws of the universe show that everything in that universe was created by Him. It is an undeniable law of the universe that everything He made was indeed made. A tree is not eternal. It has a beginning. It had to come from somewhere. God made it. That is true of everything in the universe. It is obviously not true of God, because to be a Creator, He had to be eternal--without any beginning. Without a beginningless Creator, nothing could ever have existed in the universe.
And then yet another atheist tried to cheat by arguing Darwinism as evidence of their belief there is no God. Again, let me say that the atheists are not free to skip over the question of how the universe came into existence and just start arguing about the origins of life, when they have left unanswered the question they have to prove first, namely, "Tell just one possible way that the universe could have come into existence, that the building blocks for rocks and trees and animal life could ever have existed in the first place, if not for a God making them so." They still cannot and never will be able to answer that question. Because the only answer to the question of the universe's origins is God.
Roflcopter August 13, 2007 05:50 AM PDT Dave, you are a dork and I don't like you.
Dave August 12, 2007 10:12 AM PDT Some of the atheists are still complaining that their comments get deleted from the site, and some say that my deleting their comments after a few hours or so of letting them have a free ride is evidence that I'm "afraid" to debate them. However, all of their comments have been addressed and answered here, even the ones I've deleted because they said things that were either too blasphemous, or just downright silly.
And I assure you, it remains true that none of them has, or ever will formulate even one possible scenario by which this universe we live in could have possibly come into existence without a creator intentionally making it so. That's why atheism doesn't work as a belief system. Even though people may debate about who God is and may debate the merits of one faith or another religion, the very existence of God is undisputable. That's why I'm not going to pander or pretend that the atheists have a leg to stand on in the debate--because God's existence is proven. Even when the atheists have had their way and been given power to do whatever they wanted in an attempt to destroy faith, such as when they were put in control during the communist times here in Romania, they have failed to prove their point. For two generations they were the only voice legally heard. They taught every child in every school every year of their formative life that there is no God. They used every argument they could come up with to try to persuade people that it was so. And the people here still know God is there. Even though most Romanians haven't found the joy of a right relationship with God through forgiveness of sins by personal relationship with Jesus--they still know God is real, the only conclusion that can be reached by intellectual honesty and evaluating the evidence.
And let's just suppose for a moment I did lose this debate the atheists are crying out for on my website--would that matter? No. I'm not God's defender--He doesn't need one. He has proven Himself, and even if I foolishly joined the ranks of those denying Him, He would still be real.
Also August 12, 2007 09:59 AM PDT Jack,
Your illustration doesn't work, because to believe the world is made of peanut butter would be absurd, in light of the evidence. However, to believe in God is not absurd in light of the evidence, but logical and reasonable. In fact, anyone who evaluates the evidence honestly will inevitably conclude that there is a God, because their must be.
Joe,
Thank you for conceding that the existence of the universe proves that there must be a creating personage of some kind, even though you had the flawed idea that it could be multiple gods. The single-minded purposefulness we see in the universe shows that it could not have been created by collaboration, but by one God.
Mike August 10, 2007 08:17 PM PDT I just want to make a point about atheism. Not all athiests are so black or white about God. I am an athiest in that I do not believe God exists. I accept the possibility as I must humbly accept that I do not know all things. I simply do not believe He exists. There are those who say that God does not exist...period. They are foolish. There are very few things that we can say - as humans - are absolute. Everything has areas of doubt and uncertainty. I accept and support those with faith in God. I may one day aquire a belief in God, but I do not believe in God at this time. P.S. I am not an agnostic. Agnostics do not know what to beleive, I have taken a position, I just accept the posibility of being incorrect.
Dave August 7, 2007 09:27 PM PDT Joe,
I completely understood Jack's comments, and he expressed his views quite lucidly without needing your help. Even so, he wasn't correct in what he said, and your example isn't any more correct than his. In fact, the evidence does disprove the multiple gods theory, because if you look at the universe what you find is one grand design, pointing to the truth of one designer with one mind acting alone to do what He envisioned when He created things. And as you look at the evidence of the entire universe, you will find, if you look at things honestly, that atheism is a completely untenable position, which is what this original article is about.
Joe August 7, 2007 09:17 PM PDT Dave, you missed the point of Jack's argument entirely. Perhaps he should have used a better example, such as the belief in multiple gods.
You don't believe in multiple creators of the universe. However, according to your logic the fact that you cannot produce evidence to the contrary makes that belief true.
Dave August 7, 2007 09:05 PM PDT Jack,
Yes, I could easily prove the universe is not made of peanut butter. I would just show you everything in your room, you would see it wasn't made of peanut butter and it could be proved.
However, this ease isn't what the atheist faces trying to disprove God's existence, because just as all the evidence available shows that he universe is not made of peanut butter, all of the evidence available points to the fact that nothing in the universe could be without Someone who created it causing it to be so.
Jack August 7, 2007 08:59 PM PDT Dave,
While I agree with your logic regarding proof of existence of something being much easier than proof of non-existence of something (the "black swan"), you make one ill-fated logical leap. It is easy to prove the existence of gold in Romania because even a person who does not believe there is gold in Romania must change his position when you show him/her your ring. The believer and the non-believer are both in the presence of indisputable evidence. When applying that logic to the existence of God, however, the same is not true. You as a believer, cannot show/tell an atheist anything that can be construed as undeniable proof (you have no "gold ring" to show). Thus, the very logic you are using could be expanded to any ridiculous premise. For example, I believe that the universe is made of peanut butter. I may not be able to show you this definitively, but I believe it. Now the task falls to you to prove that the universe is not made of peanut butter.
My point is that the way you are framing the question is what you believe is proving your point. Because you are framing the argument as God vs. No God, and because it is harder to disprove something you argue that God must exist. What if I frame the argument as Atheism vs. No-Atheism? If I assert that Atheism is the correct and true belief, can you disprove it?
To simply use black swan logic when there is no credible evidence for either side is a logical fallacy...
Dave August 7, 2007 10:06 AM PDT That God exists is not really debatable, and it never has been. We are in the midst of a creation that is so obviously the result of intelligent design that the presence of a Creator is self-evident. It is seen by all of us, even those among us who claim they haven't been able to perceive it. Even they know deep down He is there, although they try to suppress that knowledge to persuade themselves that they are right. But, as it has been said before, they don't just lack ample evidence of atheism's plausibility--they lack ANY evidence of it. No atheist has ever formulated even one theory of even one possible scenario by which the universe could have come into being without a powerful designer making it happen. They try to argue about the origins of life as if they are free to skip over the question of how anything existed from which life could form until such raw materials were created in the first place.
The two sides of this argument are the side acknowledging a God who is not hard to believe in because He has shown Himself, and the other side which baselessly, groundlessly denies He is there with blind faith in atheism supported by nothing. There is no more intellectually dishonest position than that of the atheist, because he claims knowlege he does not have and could not have, and doesn't care that everything he sees, including himself in the mirror, proves him wrong beyond a reasonable doubt.
Dave August 7, 2007 09:57 AM PDT At least one of the atheists that commented on this article complained that his comments were deleted. This isn't a public forum, though. It is my website, and obviously any comments on this site are subject to my approval if they are going to stay on. If someone wants to say, "Dave, you're a dork and I don't like you" chances are I will leave those comments up; but if someone blasphemes God in what they say, I will delete them of course. If they want to say silly things against God, they are free to get their own blogs to do so, and their whining and complaining about me not letting them have their say on my website will continue to be ignored without apology.
Also August 6, 2007 08:55 AM PDT But when you tell atheists these things, they still will not accept them. They are so angry at God for not being what they want Him to be, that they deny His existence in spite of all the evidence of it, just because they will not let themselves believe what they see as a terrible truth.
Yes August 6, 2007 08:53 AM PDT And what's more, the evidence that God is real is by no means limited to the testimony of those billions who know He is there and have experienced Him. In fact, everything you see is proof that He is real, so those who argue He isn't there lack any evidence to back up what they believe, but everything in Creation is evidence that the Creator is there.
DaveBunnell Romania The Missionary's Day weblog-- Authored by Dave Bunnell. Dave and his family are missionaries for Calvary Chapel Garland (Texas) . View their Romanian ministry website here. This blog features exciting stories about what God is doing on the mission field, as well as reflections on the Bible and thoughts about walking with Christ.
You may use the email link by clicking on my name in the paragraph above to contact me about anything on this site, or any questions you have on matters of faith.
Sing to the Lord, praise His Name; proclaim His salvation day after day. Declare His glory among the nations, His marvelous deeds among all peoples. For great is the Lord and most worthy of praise; He is to be feared above all gods. For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the Lord made the heavens... Say among the nations, "The Lord reigns." --from Psalm 96
